[SM-Users] Possibly A New User - Introduction

[Kevin Monceaux]

Fellow Source Mage Enthusiasts,

I might be joining the Source Mage community of users. I've been a Linux
user for several years and just discovered the Source Mage distribution last
night.

First, a little bit of my Linux history. I started out with Slackware in
the 1.x kernel days on a 486 with a 100Mb hard drive. Due mainly to my lack
of experience my Slackware box eventually became quite unstable. I'm sure I
upgraded some packages without also upgrading the libraries the packages
were dependent on. Slackware's package management system does no dependency
checking. At some point I gave Mandrake a try. Recently I switched my main
box from Mandrake to Gentoo. I'd been trying out Gentoo on a test box for a
while before that. I've also attempted a couple of Linux From Scratch
builds. For the most part I like Gentoo but there are a few things about it
I don't care for. Recently I was considering giving Slackware another try.
Actually, it was a post about ROCK Linux on a Slackware message board that
lead me to discovering Source Mage Linux.

Anyway, being a D&D/Charmed/Buffy fan there are several things I like about
the Source Mage package management theme. I downloaded the Source Mage
install CD last night and gave it a try. My test box is an old Pentium MMX
200mhz PC with a flaky CD-ROM drive. After several tries and it failing to
boot the install CD I switched to using qemu to test Source Mage. Last I
checked it was still working on the "sorcery rebuild". After installing and
getting the "sorcery rebuild" started under qemu I finally got my test PC to
boot the Source Mage install CD and made it through the install on it. I
didn't have time to go through all the questions "sorcery rebuild" would ask
so I haven't started that process on my test PC yet. I did find one snag on
my test PC that I didn't have under qemu. After the install finished and I
booted Source Mage from the hard drive of my test PC I couldn't view man
pages. When I tried "man sorcery", which worked right after the reboot
under qemu, groff complained about a missing libstdc++ library. I suspect
the "sorcery rebuild" will fix the missing dependencies. I'll get that
started tonight after I get home from work.

Although I've only tinkered briefly with Source Mage there are a few things
I've been pleasantly supprised with.

Is running "sorcery update" followed by "scribe update" the equivelant of
"emerge --sync" on Gentoo? Gentoo's "emerge --sync" takes an overabundant
amount of time, especially the part of the process where it updates the
portage cache. Updating Source Mage is extremely fast in comparison.

It appears that writing a spell for Source Mage is much simpler than
creating an ebuild for Gentoo. It would be tuff to find a distribution that
had all the packages one wants. Gentoo, for example, doesn't have a package
for an xBase compiler, clip(http://www.itk.ru/english/index.shtml), that I
use. After reading up on creating ebuilds I decided that the best approach
would be to enter a bug in Gentoo's bug system requesting that someone with
more ebuild experience create an ebuild for clip. I entered that request
about a year ago. It hasn't been touched yet. Source Mage doesn't have a
spell for clip either but I think I might stand a chance at writing one
myself.

One other build from source distribution that I'm considering, ROCK Linux,
appears to make things even easier. With ROCK Linux creating a package from
source is as simple as:

Go through the usual build steps such as:
./configure
make
etc.

Up to the point where one would run make install. At that point enter:

mkpkg <PackageName> make install

and the software in question is installed under ROCK Linux's package
management system. If it wasn't for the attraction of the sorcery theme of
Source Mage I would probably have taken ROCK Linux for a test drive last
night instead.



Kevin
http://www.RawFedDogs.net
http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org
Bruceville, TX

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes.

[AndraÅŸ &quot;ruskie&quot; Levstik]

Post by Kevin Monceaux
It appears that writing a spell for Source Mage is much simpler than
creating an ebuild for Gentoo. It would be tuff to find a distribution that
had all the packages one wants. Gentoo, for example, doesn't have a package
for an xBase compiler, clip(http://www.itk.ru/english/index.shtml), that I
use. After reading up on creating ebuilds I decided that the best approach
would be to enter a bug in Gentoo's bug system requesting that someone with
more ebuild experience create an ebuild for clip. I entered that request
about a year ago. It hasn't been touched yet. Source Mage doesn't have a
spell for clip either but I think I might stand a chance at writing one
myself.

There's a tool that helps you write spells acctually :)
Just cast guru-tools and run quill. It also hase a freshmeatxml option
which makes it easier to enter the description etc.

Also bugzilla isn't a place to request new spells. Such bugs are ussualy
invalidated so only file new spells with attachments of spell tarballs.
If you want to request new spells either ask on the forums or on IRC.
I don't think we have any other ways of requesting. I could be wrong.
--
Andra? "ruskie" Levstik
Source Mage GNU/Linux Games grimoire guru
Geek/Hacker/Tinker

Hacker FAQ: http://www.plethora.net/%7eseebs/faqs/hacker.html
Be sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth.

Key id = A7A9E461
Key fingerprint = 757E C16B F5B7 DC27 B003 CCED CF95 3A77 A7A9 E461

[Kevin Monceaux]

Post by AndraÅŸ &quot;ruskie&quot; Levstik
There's a tool that helps you write spells acctually :)
Just cast guru-tools and run quill. It also hase a freshmeatxml option
which makes it easier to enter the description etc.

That's good to know. Source Mage just keeps looking better and better. I
can hardly wait to get off of work so I can get back to trying it out.

Post by AndraÅŸ &quot;ruskie&quot; Levstik
Also bugzilla isn't a place to request new spells. Such bugs are ussualy
invalidated so only file new spells with attachments of spell tarballs.

That's good to know. With Gentoo bugzilla is a common place to request new
ebuilds, but as I mentioned in my e-mail such requests sometimes sit
untouched for years.

Post by AndraÅŸ &quot;ruskie&quot; Levstik
If you want to request new spells either ask on the forums or on IRC.
I don't think we have any other ways of requesting. I could be wrong.

Fortunately spell writing for Source Mage looks much easier than creating
ebuilds for Gentoo. I'm looking forward to creating and contributing some
spells.


Kevin
http://www.RawFedDogs.net
http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org
Bruceville, TX

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes.

[Jeremy Blosser]

Post by Kevin Monceaux
Is running "sorcery update" followed by "scribe update" the equivelant of
"emerge --sync" on Gentoo?

Roughly:
emerge portage ==> sorcery update
emerge --sync ==> scribe update

Post by Kevin Monceaux
Gentoo's "emerge --sync" takes an overabundant amount of time, especially
the part of the process where it updates the portage cache. Updating
Source Mage is extremely fast in comparison.

Yes. A common observation is that we "compile faster" than Gentoo; this
made little sense to us since compiling is compiling, but it appears to
come down to our package manager being faster at package management.
Gentoo of course is working on replacing portage with other things that are
better.

Post by Kevin Monceaux
It appears that writing a spell for Source Mage is much simpler than
creating an ebuild for Gentoo. It would be tuff to find a distribution that
had all the packages one wants. Gentoo, for example, doesn't have a package
for an xBase compiler, clip(http://www.itk.ru/english/index.shtml), that I
use. After reading up on creating ebuilds I decided that the best approach
would be to enter a bug in Gentoo's bug system requesting that someone with
more ebuild experience create an ebuild for clip. I entered that request
about a year ago. It hasn't been touched yet. Source Mage doesn't have a
spell for clip either but I think I might stand a chance at writing one
myself.

If you can read and write you can probably manage writing a spell. :-)

Post by Kevin Monceaux
One other build from source distribution that I'm considering, ROCK Linux,
appears to make things even easier. With ROCK Linux creating a package from
./configure
make
etc.
mkpkg <PackageName> make install
and the software in question is installed under ROCK Linux's package
management system. If it wasn't for the attraction of the sorcery theme of
Source Mage I would probably have taken ROCK Linux for a test drive last
night instead.

You may want to look at quill, which is a spell-writing tool in the
guru-tools spell.
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[Eric Sandall]

Post by Kevin Monceaux
Fellow Source Mage Enthusiasts,
I might be joining the Source Mage community of users. I've been a Linux
user for several years and just discovered the Source Mage distribution last
night.

We're always happy to see a new face. :) Be sure to join us in IRC as
well (irc.freenode.net channel #sourcemage) if you'd care to chat live
with fellow users and our intrepid developers.

Post by Kevin Monceaux
First, a little bit of my Linux history. I started out with Slackware in
the 1.x kernel days on a 486 with a 100Mb hard drive. Due mainly to my lack
of experience my Slackware box eventually became quite unstable. I'm sure I
upgraded some packages without also upgrading the libraries the packages
were dependent on. Slackware's package management system does no dependency
checking. At some point I gave Mandrake a try. Recently I switched my main
box from Mandrake to Gentoo. I'd been trying out Gentoo on a test box for a
while before that. I've also attempted a couple of Linux From Scratch
builds. For the most part I like Gentoo but there are a few things about it
I don't care for. Recently I was considering giving Slackware another try.
Actually, it was a post about ROCK Linux on a Slackware message board that
lead me to discovering Source Mage Linux.

Various developers have a winding road as well to SMGL. ;) You can read
their stories from http://www.sourcemage.org/developers (look for the
"Developers Page" link).

Post by Kevin Monceaux
Anyway, being a D&D/Charmed/Buffy fan there are several things I like about
the Source Mage package management theme. I downloaded the Source Mage
install CD last night and gave it a try. My test box is an old Pentium MMX
200mhz PC with a flaky CD-ROM drive. After several tries and it failing to
boot the install CD I switched to using qemu to test Source Mage. Last I
checked it was still working on the "sorcery rebuild". After installing and
getting the "sorcery rebuild" started under qemu I finally got my test PC to
boot the Source Mage install CD and made it through the install on it. I
didn't have time to go through all the questions "sorcery rebuild" would ask
so I haven't started that process on my test PC yet. I did find one snag on
my test PC that I didn't have under qemu. After the install finished and I
booted Source Mage from the hard drive of my test PC I couldn't view man
pages. When I tried "man sorcery", which worked right after the reboot
under qemu, groff complained about a missing libstdc++ library. I suspect
the "sorcery rebuild" will fix the missing dependencies. I'll get that
started tonight after I get home from work.

Before doing the rebuild please file a bug with as much information as
you can think relevant so we can try to fix the problem.

Post by Kevin Monceaux
Although I've only tinkered briefly with Source Mage there are a few things
I've been pleasantly supprised with.

We aim to please!

Post by Kevin Monceaux
Is running "sorcery update" followed by "scribe update" the equivelant of
"emerge --sync" on Gentoo? Gentoo's "emerge --sync" takes an overabundant
amount of time, especially the part of the process where it updates the
portage cache. Updating Source Mage is extremely fast in comparison.

`emerge --sync` updates the package information on Gentoo, which is what
`scribe update` does in SMGL. emerge also, by default, uses rsync, which
is very slow over fast lines (rsync is better on slow lines, go figure
;)). We do a direct compressed tarball download, with some support for
rsync (though recent server updates broke this) and planned support for
other methods (such as checkout out a git repository of our packages).

If you want to do an equivalent of `emerge --sync && emerge -u world`
you can simply run `sorcery system-update` (or `sorcery -s` for short),
which runs the following commands:
scribe update (updates our grimoire, the list of packages).
sorcery update (updates Sorcery, our package manager).
cleanse (cleanse up stale package information)
sorcery queue (builds up a list of packages that have been updated).
cast --queue (begins compilation and installation of packages in the
queue).

Post by Kevin Monceaux
It appears that writing a spell for Source Mage is much simpler than
creating an ebuild for Gentoo. It would be tuff to find a distribution that
had all the packages one wants. Gentoo, for example, doesn't have a package
for an xBase compiler, clip(http://www.itk.ru/english/index.shtml), that I
use. After reading up on creating ebuilds I decided that the best approach
would be to enter a bug in Gentoo's bug system requesting that someone with
more ebuild experience create an ebuild for clip. I entered that request
about a year ago. It hasn't been touched yet. Source Mage doesn't have a
spell for clip either but I think I might stand a chance at writing one
myself.

Spells, IMO (and I am quite biased ;)) are very easy to make. I have
contributed over 200 myself. :) We have documentation
(http://wiki.sourcemage.org/Spell_Writing_Handbook,
http://wiki.sourcemage.org/SpellwritingForDummies, and others on our
wiki) as well as a tool quill (in the guru-tools package) that can write
simple spells for you!

Post by Kevin Monceaux
One other build from source distribution that I'm considering, ROCK Linux,
appears to make things even easier. With ROCK Linux creating a package from
./configure
make
etc.
mkpkg <PackageName> make install
and the software in question is installed under ROCK Linux's package
management system. If it wasn't for the attraction of the sorcery theme of
Source Mage I would probably have taken ROCK Linux for a test drive last
night instead.

That's a nifty feature, though from a quick glance it appears to make a
binary package that you can install (it monitors what files are
installed and puts those in the package), but doesn't make a package to
build from source. The above only works for packages supporting
./configure and friends. ;) A neat idea for binary distributions
(provided I am not misunderstanding its use, of course).

With quill, if the package is as simple to setup as the one in your ROCK
example you just need to provide a website URL and tarball URL and
quill will fill in the rest (I believe it has, or is in the works,
functionality to grab information from Freshmeat and such websites). Now
you have a package that can build from source. ;)

- -sandalle

- --
Eric Sandall | Source Mage GNU/Linux Developer
eric at sandall.us | http://www.sourcemage.org/
http://eric.sandall.us/ | SysAdmin @ Shock Physics @ WSU
http://counter.li.org/ #196285 | http://www.shock.wsu.edu/

[Kevin Monceaux]

Post by Eric Sandall
We're always happy to see a new face. :) Be sure to join us in IRC as
well (irc.freenode.net channel #sourcemage) if you'd care to chat live
with fellow users and our intrepid developers.

I've never been much of an IRC fan but I've heard from a couple of SMGL
users that IRC is popular in the SMGL community. I might just have to check
it out. Does anyone have a recomendation for a text based IRC client?
While at work, like now, I check my mail, etc., on my box at home via SSH.

Post by Eric Sandall
Before doing the rebuild please file a bug with as much information as
you can think relevant so we can try to fix the problem.

Before doing so it would probably be best for me to go through the install
again so I can make note of anything that might have caused the problem. I
didn't have the problem when I installed SMGL under qemu. I'm only seeing
the problem on my aging Pentium MMX 200mhz box. As I said in my intro
e-mail it's CD-ROM drive is rather flaky. The CD-ROM drive might have acted
up while the package containing the missing library was being installed.
If that was the case it's not an SGML bug.

Post by Eric Sandall
Spells, IMO (and I am quite biased ;)) are very easy to make. I have
contributed over 200 myself. :) We have documentation
(http://wiki.sourcemage.org/Spell_Writing_Handbook,
http://wiki.sourcemage.org/SpellwritingForDummies, and others on our
wiki) as well as a tool quill (in the guru-tools package) that can write
simple spells for you!

Great. I'd love to be able to write and contribute some spells.


Kevin
http://www.RawFedDogs.net
http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org
Bruceville, TX

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes.

[Eric Sandall]

Post by Kevin Monceaux

Post by Eric Sandall
We're always happy to see a new face. :) Be sure to join us in IRC as
well (irc.freenode.net channel #sourcemage) if you'd care to chat live
with fellow users and our intrepid developers.

I've never been much of an IRC fan but I've heard from a couple of SMGL
users that IRC is popular in the SMGL community. I might just have to check
it out. Does anyone have a recomendation for a text based IRC client?
While at work, like now, I check my mail, etc., on my box at home via SSH.

<snip>

Many of the SMGL devs use irssi inside of a screen on a server so they
may have IRC up 24/7 even while they're not 'connected' to the server.
:) irssi may take a bit to get used to, but once you do it's almost like
finding vim after teething on Notepad.

- -sandalle

- --
Eric Sandall | Source Mage GNU/Linux Developer
eric at sandall.us | http://www.sourcemage.org/
http://eric.sandall.us/ | SysAdmin @ Shock Physics @ WSU
http://counter.li.org/ #196285 | http://www.shock.wsu.edu/

[AndraÅŸ &quot;ruskie&quot; Levstik]

Post by Eric Sandall
Many of the SMGL devs use irssi inside of a screen on a server so they
may have IRC up 24/7 even while they're not 'connected' to the server.
:) irssi may take a bit to get used to, but once you do it's almost like
finding vim after teething on Notepad.

Even further irssi in screen connected to BNCs :)
--
Andra? "ruskie" Levstik
Source Mage GNU/Linux Games grimoire guru
Geek/Hacker/Tinker

Hacker FAQ: http://www.plethora.net/%7eseebs/faqs/hacker.html
Be sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth.

Key id = A7A9E461
Key fingerprint = 757E C16B F5B7 DC27 B003 CCED CF95 3A77 A7A9 E461

[seth]

Post by Kevin Monceaux
so I haven't started that process on my test PC yet. I did find one snag on
my test PC that I didn't have under qemu. After the install finished and I
booted Source Mage from the hard drive of my test PC I couldn't view man
pages. When I tried "man sorcery", which worked right after the reboot
under qemu, groff complained about a missing libstdc++ library. I suspect
the "sorcery rebuild" will fix the missing dependencies. I'll get that
started tonight after I get home from work.

man installed, but its dependency, g++ did not. The iso installer is a bit
dumber than sorcery itself when building from scratch, so that might have
been fixed recently. If not, this would be a good test case for the new
installer.

Post by Kevin Monceaux
Although I've only tinkered briefly with Source Mage there are a few things
I've been pleasantly supprised with.
Is running "sorcery update" followed by "scribe update" the equivelant of
"emerge --sync" on Gentoo? Gentoo's "emerge --sync" takes an overabundant
amount of time, especially the part of the process where it updates the
portage cache. Updating Source Mage is extremely fast in comparison.

It's just an illusion ;)

Post by Kevin Monceaux
It appears that writing a spell for Source Mage is much simpler than
creating an ebuild for Gentoo. It would be tuff to find a distribution that
had all the packages one wants. Gentoo, for example, doesn't have a package
for an xBase compiler, clip(http://www.itk.ru/english/index.shtml), that I
use. After reading up on creating ebuilds I decided that the best approach
would be to enter a bug in Gentoo's bug system requesting that someone with
more ebuild experience create an ebuild for clip. I entered that request
about a year ago. It hasn't been touched yet. Source Mage doesn't have a
spell for clip either but I think I might stand a chance at writing one
myself.
One other build from source distribution that I'm considering, ROCK Linux,
appears to make things even easier. With ROCK Linux creating a package from
./configure
make
etc.
mkpkg <PackageName> make install

alter -n <PackageName> -v <PackageVersion> make install

to install, copy the /var/cache/sorcery/packagename-packageversion*
file to the other computer in the same spot and:

dispel -d <PackageVersion> <PackageName>

(That was the resurrect shortcut, and I hope it still is,
Andrew, correct me if wrong)

If that doesn't work, just unpacking the file to the root directory works,
too, but you'd have to add your own entry to /var/state/sorcery/packages.

Post by Kevin Monceaux
and the software in question is installed under ROCK Linux's package
management system. If it wasn't for the attraction of the sorcery theme of
Source Mage I would probably have taken ROCK Linux for a test drive last
night instead.

If that's how ROCK works, I'd be disapoointed.

<snip>

Post by Kevin Monceaux
Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes.

If this to-gather know-you, excess education have-you.

or, as I "gather" it:

If you know how to read this, you have excess education.
Seth

[Kevin Monceaux]

Seth,

Post by seth

Post by Kevin Monceaux
Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes.

If this to-gather know-you, excess education have-you.
If you know how to read this, you have excess education.
Seth

Earlier I heard from an SMGL user that's a fellow raw feeder. Now, I hear
from one who knows a little Latin. the SMGL community just gets more and
more inviting. Actually, I'm just starting to try to learn Latin myself.
Humm, I wonder if Latin could help me cast better spells. <VBG> I got the
above saying off of a t-shirt. It was translated on the t-shirt as:

If you can read this, you're over educated.


Kevin
http://www.RawFedDogs.net
http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org
Bruceville, TX

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes.